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Stopped ball 5 bar pass
#1
So since Syracuse is coming up where the games will be tightly officiated and there are bound to be rules disputes, wanted to bring something up, which shows the general consensus on how this was ruled even at the HOFC this past few months regarding a stopped 5 ball.

I know there's been a few rules disputes in Ottawa about this (which I've tried to call people on), so decided to go ask some of the active refs their take on this thread:

http://www.foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewt...hp?t=13285

First the rule:
Quote:A ball whose motion has clearly stopped may be legally passed if this pass if immediate. Any hesitation befor the pass and the pass shall be declared illegal.

Some of the excerpts:
Quote:If there is no doubt the ball was stopped, it was not immediate enough.

If you are unsure if it stopped or not, then it was immediate enough.

Quote:I've always ruled that if the ball is stopped and there is no swinging motion through the ball then it cannot be passed. I went over this at the Hall of Fame Classic in Vegas (March 2013) with Arthur to be sure. He agreed. Look at the rule:

23.1.1 A ball whose motion has clearly stopped may be legally passed if this pass is immediate.

So basically, unless you are already swinging through the ball, it doesn't matter if it's 200 milliseconds, if your opponent notices that it was stopped, then you are in violation of this rule. that's still a stopped ball.
- Casti
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#2
(26-Sep-2013, 10:45 AM)deliverance Wrote: if your opponent notices that it was stopped

This is where it gets ugly. Kind of like calling someone out for going over the time limit. People should know when to call themselves on a stopped ball pass, but unless the ball has sat still for a brief period it's pretty hard to state with certainty that it has indeed stopped moving.
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#3
I guess we should try to trust that most of us don't really care about $5 stakes week to week, rather we want to play a clean, fair game. If you get called on it, chances are it was questionable or you were at fault.

Just saying if it's questionable at times, we should all be aware and curb those habits before the big tourneys where we'll be called on it.

That includes adjustments, time on 5 bar, distractions, jarring (where I don't think in Ottawa we're very strict on calling these), questionable passes, and the ball out of play one which we've had some disputes over.
- Casti
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#4
(26-Sep-2013, 11:28 AM)deliverance Wrote: I guess we should try to trust that most of us don't really care about $5 stakes week to week, rather we want to play a clean, fair game. If you get called on it, chances are it was questionable or you were at fault.

I don't think anyone is actively trying to cheat, but sometimes when people are frustrated they tend to exaggerate... If someone takes a full 15 secs on each snake for instance, but is scoring 100%, a fair amount of opponents will complain about the time taken. Same with the stopped ball pass: If your brush is living on the edge constantly, but is effective, a fair amount of people will complain when frustrated. And who knows, they may be right, but I've seen cases when they're wrong. I don't particularly agree with "if the opponent calls it, it's a foul" due to this.
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#5
Fair, my bad on the wording, just trying to set clarification on the rule so people are self-aware of what is considered stop ball pass.
- Casti
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#6

I occasionally call this rule on people and everyone still tries to quote the old "within 1 second" rule back at me. That hasn't been a rule for like 10 years.

The way Casti described it is the way I understand it too. There are a couple of players in Ottawa that I tend to watch pretty closely since they are right on the edge. It's just the way they pass. They skirt the line pretty closely and sometimes don't realize they're over it... but I've never even come close to calling this rule on anyone else. So I'm pretty sure it's not frustration or my imagination.

Taha
My belief is that I get to make fun of your beliefs. Please respect my belief.
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#7
your impact guy has to be in impact motion before the ball stops moving
Ellen "ESP" Moon
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#8

What makes this a judgement call is that the rule states: a ball who's motion has clearly "stopped" must be advanced. It needs to be amended so that it reads no "stopped" ball may be passed. Why did they even allow the ball to stop?
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#9
It's not though. Go read the thread, basically the rule is there which says during your brush pass, if you happen to nudge the ball and as you strike the ball it happened to instantaneously stop while you were in the motion of passing that's cool, but any other hesitation is a stopped ball.

You have to make the cut-off somewhere, this is where they chose to do it. You can interpret it as "You must make the passing motion while seeing the ball still in motion, such that if it stops during the pass, it's still legal"
- Casti
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#10
Tongue with a brush pass you can continuously be making the passing motion Tongue

over the years I've heard and read so many variations and interpretations that I'm so smug knowing that with my game the problem could never come up

seriously, I don't know what the current official rule book wording is, just the same I'm confident that in the eternal quest of passing a stopping ball but never a stopped ball Helen above said it best:

(26-Sep-2013, 05:30 PM)EllenM Wrote: your impact guy has to be in impact motion before the ball stops moving

short, sweet, and precise
[img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/angry-old-man-smiley-emoticon.gif[/img]

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#11
You can discuss this situation forever because as you can see there are differences of opinion. This is because all rules are subjective. Rules are not meant to be definitive. Both sides of any argument have a subjective opinion based upon observation, opinion, experience and gamesmanship. It is word against word.

If you are in doubt or want to ensure a fair shake get a ref as no matter what they should be independent. Then you can concentrate on your games.
If you are there to play competitive foos and you are not there to argue and play a separate mental game of who knows the rule book better call a ref.
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#12
how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

yep, here comes the judge

perceptions varies, even a bad referee is better than no referee at all, as long as he/she's impartial

but I like what came out of this, the evolution of wording/interpretation of the rule: you can pass a stopping ball, you cannot pass a stopped ball

now if we get instant replay we don't really need the ref
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#13
(27-Sep-2013, 12:34 AM)rustyspurs Wrote: If you are in doubt or want to ensure a fair shake get a ref as no matter what they should be independent. Then you can concentrate on your games.
If you are there to play competitive foos and you are not there to argue and play a separate mental game of who knows the rule book better call a ref.

This is the most important thing there is. After 15 years of playing, I am FINALLY not taking calling a ref personally and/or letting rule calls bother me. It's hard though. I just smile, give up the ball and let karma sort things out. Unless it's Casti Tongue
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk
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#14
(27-Sep-2013, 08:48 AM)5barwarrior Wrote:
(27-Sep-2013, 12:34 AM)rustyspurs Wrote: If you are in doubt or want to ensure a fair shake get a ref as no matter what they should be independent. Then you can concentrate on your games.
If you are there to play competitive foos and you are not there to argue and play a separate mental game of who knows the rule book better call a ref.

This is the most important thing there is. After 15 years of playing, I am FINALLY not taking calling a ref personally and/or letting rule calls bother me. It's hard though. I just smile, give up the ball and let karma sort things out. Unless it's Casti Tongue
Call this one done.
Now on to distractions and resets! lol
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#15
timing, don't forget timing

I for one sometimes make the mistake of starting to count after I get control of the ball rather than when the ball enters my zone of control

but hey, am not lacking for company Tongue
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