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Pull Technique
#1
So I think I may have worked out the inconsistencies in my pull. Unfortunately since my home table is a Warrior, who knows if this will transition properly to Tornado. Anyways, I'll break down what I now do, in the hopes that others will add their pull description in full, and then we can have a go to resource for pull-shots.

Stance:
I stand so that the 5 bar handle lines up close to the inside of my left thigh. My left foot points straight ahead (12 o'clock) and my right foot is about a foot backward pointing more to 2 o'clock. I'm a comfortable distance away from the table and not very hunched over.

Grip:
Most people tell me my grip sucks, but I grab the end of the handle, so that my index finger sits in the groove of it. I get much more consistency and power this way than with my index closer to the rod.

Startup & Ball placement:
I have the ball slightly back, so that I can pull with the men not tilted back at all. I found that no tilt vastly improved my consistency today... Hopefully that's my secret. I also found that this tightens up my inside options, and closely resembles my rolling pull set too (probably why I'm more consistent with it now)

Motion:
I don't really think of it as an all in one motion. At takeoff, I takeoff close to as fast as I can, but not too fast, otherwise I can't go overtop of the ball later. I try to maintain contact with the ball during the entire motion. Whether I do or not is a different story, but my thoughts are to keep in contact with the ball during the entire shot. Close to the hole I'm aiming for, I attempt to accelerate as I lift up (my lift is very minimal, and the lift for long starts around 2/3 - 3/4 long), and then snap while attempting to stop my lateral motion. My snap feels like it comes from the hip, not the shoulder. I don't try to recoil, it just happens to do so from the stop attempt. When I try to recoil I miss the shot completely.

It'd be interesting what others have to say about their technique and stances. Chris, could you also describe your push technique too?
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#2
very interesting post. We are at a disadvantage here in Ottawa as we do not really have bona fide pull shooting pro living here to explain things and demonstrate the proper technique. The closest we have is Merv and Omar who shoot the shot as a secondary shot.
Chris shoots a pretty nice push, but I think the push and pull have some prinicipal differences. I have been trying to develop this shot and I am not having the success I hoped for.
I have watched all the you tube stuff and searched the net but I am still not satisfied as I think I am a visual learner. I have watched some really great players at the few tourneys I have attended and I am amazed at the way they can shoot this shot. Local shooters do not remotely compare to the skill level of the US shooters I have seen. Good luck we will talk.
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#3
A good place to ask questions about this in the near future is Syracuse. It's entirely likely that Kevin Walker will be there, and he's got an absolutely WICKED pull.

That being said, it's tough to describe the technique in the great detail that you're attempting. For example, there's a whole spectrum of stances and grips in use by pro/promaster pull shooters. At the end of the day, it really comes down to what feels comfortable to you.

I WILL preface this thread by saying that the pull is definitely NOT my primary shot, but I have had some decent success with it. To be honest, my push shot is actually better. Smile I'm sure someone will dig up some promaster advice threads about this, but until then...

Stances:
If you don't believe me, compare the stances of Tracy McMillin and Joe Rhodes. Both have absolutely awesome, terrifying pull shots; however, their stances could NOT be any more different. These are definitely the two extremes of the spectrum.

Tracy stands almost completely straight, feet parallel, body squared up to the table.

Rhodes is almost completely crouched, right leg about 3-4 feet behind his left leg, body mostly facing the net.

Personally, I vary between a Tracy-like stance and a bit more of an open stance, something like you describe above. I use the same stance for pull + push.

Grip:
Overhand? Handshake? Top of the handle? Bottom of the handle? Thumb up? Thumb wrapped around? Experiment. Find something that works. Old folk wisdom that I've heard is that choking up on the handle will grant you more control and a faster lateral, while grabbing the butt of the handle will increase the power in your shot.

Personally, I grip the top of the handle (choked up) for both shots. My pull grip is about halfway between a motorcycle (completely overhand) and a handshake (completely vertical) grip. My push grip is about halfway between that and a handshake grip - it looks more vertical.

Stroke:
1-stroke or 2-stroke? Spray or recoil? Again, completely varies amongst shooters. I CAN tell you that most promaster pull shooters do NOT use a deadman stroke. I will also tell you that you CAN hit 1-finger off deadman without recoiling, if you put enough forward power into the ball (as demo'ed by Mario Ariganello).

My pull stroke is mostly a spray - except for the deadbar. My push stroke, on the other hand, is almost always a 2-stroke, recoiled shot. Keep in mind that you CAN spray with a 2-stroke - it just takes a microsecond longer. Smile

Ball placement and movement:
I keep the ball more or less on the dots. If I'm trying to spray, I pretty much just pull/push the ball on a straight lateral, get behind it, keep the backswing low, and snap it into the net. If I'm trying to 2-stroke/square, I adjust the lateral movement of the ball so that at the point that I want to shoot, it will be at a point under the rod known as the "squeeze point". Gid can elaborate further on this. Smile


Important thing to remember for shooting either shot:

Focus on the LATERAL movement of the ball.
If you smash the ball like Hercules, but have a take-off like a 747, it isn't gonna do you much good. The defense will race you. You might hurt their hand, but they will sure as hell block your shot. Focus most of your energy on bringing that ball OVER - that energy will then translate into forward motion of the ball. If you've got a smooth, quick, quiet take-off, it's much more difficult for the goalie to race you. Focus on trying to YANK that rod right out of the table. Remember, it's a PULL. SHOT. In that order.
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#4
My Push Technique:

Stance:
Left foot forward, right foot half a step back. Right foot is pointing at 2:00.

Ball Setup:
With the new tables I have to put the ball on the dots. On the older tables/balls, I can set the ball a bit further back. Essentially I want to be able to brush the ball as much as possible without stubbing the ball. This allows me to recoil the ball and straighten it out.

Shot:
My take off is still inconsistent. I have moments of greatness when the whole shot is so smooth and fast. This is what I strive for. Otherwise my take off is noticeable and thus race-able (proven nightly by Vern and Merv). As Mario described, there are two types of shots, spray or recoil. The shot should be implemented in one motion but it is difficult to do. The lateral movement should place the ball where you want and then the recoil swing pinches the ball a little bit and forces it straight.

I agree with Mario, lateral speed is the key to any drag shot be it either the push or pull.
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk
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#5
would anyone say that the push/pull shots are more consistent than the snake?
[i]"I can't make you look stupid any more than Betty Crocker can bake a cake out of thin air. You provide the ingredients, believe me. It's not that I want to be an asshole, it's just that it comes so easily and I lack either the restraint or good will to say nothing at all."[/i]
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#6
Consistency will come with practice.
Snake shot is easier to learn the corners.
Pull naturally faster than the push. Deadbar takes practice for consistency
Push is the hardest of all which is why you don't see many people shoot it. ( I am weird that way).
"Man's way to God is with beer in hand." - some Belgium monk
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#7
(04-Oct-2011, 04:42 PM)Paul Wrote: would anyone say that the push/pull shots are more consistent than the snake?

Chris is right, consistency depends upon practice. They're all one-man shots.
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#8
(04-Oct-2011, 05:04 PM)5barwarrior Wrote: Consistency will come with practice.
Snake shot is easier to learn the corners.
Pull naturally faster than the push. Deadbar takes practice for consistency
Push is the hardest of all which is why you don't see many people shoot it. ( I am weird that way).
I have been experimenting with a "Texas T" kind of take off with my pull shot (only that a Texas T is with two men not one man). I hope I am making sense. Plus I learned a little bit of stuff from that pro master, pull shot guy, that came to the last tournament. It was the tournament that had the fireball table (I believe that was the name of the table).
But I do agree that you have to experiment to find a stance, grip and position that works for you, it is always about improving.
I think the biggest problem that I have is I can do the pull shot at home really great, but I go to a different table and I lose my timing or rhythm or something. I really need to fix that problem to get better.
Very hard shot to master.
Byron
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#9
(04-Oct-2011, 04:34 PM)5barwarrior Wrote: Shot:
My take off is still inconsistent. I have moments of greatness when the whole shot is so smooth and fast. This is what I strive for. Otherwise my take off is noticeable and thus race-able (proven nightly by Vern and Merv).

I've had good days and bad days as well, most recently this past Friday I couldn't hit a damn shot. I figured that my stance and setup may have been changing, which is why I recently attempted to break it all down. I realize that I'm never going to be 100% consistent, but I feel that I've made strides very recently.

NoPullPaul Wrote:would anyone say that the push/pull shots are more consistent than the snake?

My pull (and my push sadly) are more consistent than my snake. I'm sure this is a matter of personal taste for everyone.
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#10
(04-Oct-2011, 07:38 PM)SilentSam Wrote:
(04-Oct-2011, 04:34 PM)5barwarrior Wrote: Shot:
My take off is still inconsistent. I have moments of greatness when the whole shot is so smooth and fast. This is what I strive for. Otherwise my take off is noticeable and thus race-able (proven nightly by Vern and Merv).

I've had good days and bad days as well, most recently this past Friday I couldn't hit a damn shot. I figured that my stance and setup may have been changing, which is why I recently attempted to break it all down. I realize that I'm never going to be 100% consistent, but I feel that I've made strides very recently.

NoPullPaul Wrote:would anyone say that the push/pull shots are more consistent than the snake?

My pull (and my push sadly) are more consistent than my snake. I'm sure this is a matter of personal taste for everyone.

with my elbow causing problems as of late, maybe I should convert myself to pull; force it because it's a lot less stressful than a snake is on the elbow.
[i]"I can't make you look stupid any more than Betty Crocker can bake a cake out of thin air. You provide the ingredients, believe me. It's not that I want to be an asshole, it's just that it comes so easily and I lack either the restraint or good will to say nothing at all."[/i]
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#11
(04-Oct-2011, 07:38 PM)SilentSam Wrote:
(04-Oct-2011, 04:34 PM)5barwarrior Wrote: Shot:
My take off is still inconsistent. I have moments of greatness when the whole shot is so smooth and fast. This is what I strive for. Otherwise my take off is noticeable and thus race-able (proven nightly by Vern and Merv).

I've had good days and bad days as well, most recently this past Friday I couldn't hit a damn shot. I figured that my stance and setup may have been changing, which is why I recently attempted to break it all down. I realize that I'm never going to be 100% consistent, but I feel that I've made strides very recently.

No, no one will ever be 100% consistent - but people can get damn close. As can you, with enough practice. Don't be so self-defeatist/modest. Tongue
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#12
he tends to spread that sort of cheer out amongst his surrounding "friends" as well.
[i]"I can't make you look stupid any more than Betty Crocker can bake a cake out of thin air. You provide the ingredients, believe me. It's not that I want to be an asshole, it's just that it comes so easily and I lack either the restraint or good will to say nothing at all."[/i]
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#13
(04-Oct-2011, 08:43 PM)Paul Wrote: with my elbow causing problems as of late, maybe I should convert myself to pull; force it because it's a lot less stressful than a snake is on the elbow.

I've always found that the pull causes the most stress out of any shot in foos, unless you're open handing it. I've heard from quite a few pull shooters that they go into tournaments and shoot snake for all the matches that they consider easy wins, simply to save their arm for their tough matches.
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#14
I was just saying to Paul last night at league that the pull shot is actually much harder on the arm than the snake! Almost any tournament player will tell you their arm gets tired much faster using the pull. Paul I don't know how much force you're exerting (you're no Omar) with your shot but as far as stamina goes snake is one of the best!
http://www.netfoos.com
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#15
This sort of joint problems is typically caused by breakdowns of the cartilage which cushions the ends of bones.

Glucosamine sulphate and chondroitin, separately or in combination, taken regularly may be effective in reducing pain and even improving functional ability. You need to take them regularly over a period of months to get the benefits. I have no doubt glucosamine works for me.

These dietary supplements are substances, not brand products. Look them up on the net and decide for yourself.
[img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/angry-old-man-smiley-emoticon.gif[/img]

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